Men Trying Too Hard
Dear Readers,
I heard from my friend Paula about something that happened to her a while back. She said, "a female grad student in science came to me for advice when I directed UCI (University of California, Irvine)women's center. The only woman in her lab, she felt the PI did not respect her or find her ideas interesting because he treated her rather formally vs. the informal bantering relationships he established with male students, never invited her for coffee, etc. Turns out he was very conscious of not wanting to give any signals to her or others of questionable interest in her, or risk inappropriate behavior, with the effect of excluding her from lots of important informal contact. His consciousness had been raised (somewhat) but he hadn't taken the next steps."
Nice list, Walking a Fine Line! I think you are doing what it takes to get the best of being protected while still having a good relationship with your male advisor. Thanks for sharing it!
Cheers,
Laura
So, here's what I do:
1. Try to keep one-on-one meetings with my male advisor to his office, in the day time.
2. Kid around with him and others at journal clubs and seminars.
3. Make occasional appointments with him to update him on my project.
4. Make occasional appointment with him to shoot the breeze about where the field is going.
I kind of hate making 3 and 4 appointments, but if I don't, we don't communicate and I think it's important.
I agree! Favorite Daughter you are where many women would like to be, so enjoy it!
cheers,
Laura Hoopes
Favorite Daughter, you've got a good one there:) It's refreshing to hear about such relationships!
B. I don't know, my advisor (male) invites me to go bird watching with him when we're both at out of town meetings, takes me to coffee sometimes, seems to like to talk science with me. No harassment though. I enjoy that fact that he seems to like my scientific thoughts, and wish all women could have that sort of relationship with their advisors.
I don't know. I think it's C, but it might be D. I'm not going there though. I've been in lab when one of the men is organizing a get together, and he'll pass right by me to invite every single man. My advisor sometimes does the same thing. He also took all the men in the lab to visit another scientist when we all presented at a meeting, and I was the only one not invited. And the only woman, of course. I had to pay extra for my room because, unlike the guys I didn't have anyone to share with.
I saw one of my female friends do something like you suggest, hmcbride. She would try to do things socially with our advisor, but always included others (sometimes me) along with her. He and she did have a good relationship. I know what you mean about better to stay away from comeraderie if it leads to groping. I had that happen to me once and it's no fun, especially when it's a scientist you (used to) respect.
Some men are more comfortable around women, but after giving this a lot of thought, I'd rather have men be more conservative about their interactions with women than have to worry about being groped as we had to in the past by some older male faculty member. How to strike a good balance? Try to develop the relationship as well as you can with the limits placed on "appearances". I have a good relationship with my postdoc advisor even though we didn't have lunch alone together. We still had lunch, we just invited another postdoc along (also female). And when I go for drinks at conferences or dinner, I always ask along another male to make the main one comfortable if they express some concerns. You just work with what you've got...I respect their concerns as I have them too with my male associates who report to me. Harassment and the appearance of it go both ways!
Well, both of the two women on whom I'm writing the biography have good relationships with their male mentors. I'd say really good, way beyond what a lot of women or even men experience. Why did it work for them and not for others? Is it possible that they did something to make their graduate advisors feel more comfortable with them than the average male does with the average female scientist? I don't mean short hair and men's shoes (don't get me started on those!), FBP. I do think some men are just more comfortable around women but I wonder if we can do anything to make it easier for them?
cheers,
Laura
C, definitely. I've had guys at a meeting say we had to discuss our research in the lobby because going in the bar (10 steps away) would look bad. Once a guy invited me to his room to see his data, and then sheepishly left the room door open 10 inches (he measured it!). I don't know, would it help if I cut my hair real short and wore men's shoes? FBP
C. Happens all the time. My postdoc advisor even said to me that we couldn't have lunch together without someone else being present because it "would look bad". And until I got married I was never invited to his home for dinner, even with his wife present! Men walk away from harassment training confused. Heck I walk away from mine confused! One year it was OK to "give a colleague a neck massage" Gross! The next time I took the class that was forbidden...thank goodness! It's easiest just to keep the opposite gender at arm's length. But it does hurt women in academe because they miss out on the informal networking. And men do look at you strangely unless you're married even at conferences if you ask them to go out to dinner or for drinks. So it isn't limited to advisors.
