If they're wrong, are we stuck with their mental images?
2011-11-16
Hi friends of women in science,
I follow various online sources and this week, I recieved a stream of postings about the TED lecture we discussed earlier by Sheryl Sandberg, the CEO of Facebook. As I said in our discussion on this forum, she said things that I thought showed her as very supportive of family and career for women. But she said she wished women would sit at the table instead of around the edges when they come to conferences, and would stay in the game until they need to step out for childbearing and child care. The discussion I received in my email was highly negative, claiming that Sheryl was against family and career and that she was blaming the victim, that women are only taking the outside chairs because of men's persecution. I spoke up for Sheryl and got a couple of nasty emails off line and a dead silence on the thread; people who posted after me just ignored what I said, which was that maybe they should listen to the talk because it did not seem against family and career to me.
Later I decided that from my point of view, the respondents are into victim glorification in a big way. I know in my gut that women in STEM fields are often discouraged or not supported, but I also know women who are interested in STEM will encounter cheerleaders and boosters as I did, even in the day when they were few and far between. I strongly believe in free will and in women's ability to overcome the negative images that some others might project upon us. I think we don't need to meekly swallow the idea that women should be seen and not heard, and that we can sit at the table and join the discussion. And that if we do, we will benefit and so will our organizations.
Thanks, I needed to say that. But let me know if you think I am off base.
best,
Laura
Carol Dweck reports on research in her book Mindset that talks, among other topics, about the power of stereotypes. One observation I recall is that while young woman that do well in math are told they are doing well, young men have often been called stupid by their peers. Remember, both sexes are doing well in math. But the young men begin to learn to discount the opinions of others about them. While the young woman had no reason to do so. In an experiment men and woman did equally well on a math test until something as small as asking for your gender on the paper reminded the woman of stereotypes and their scores dropped. Carol Dweck recalls her own experience of doing very well in math, until she had one teacher that believed woman couldn't do math. She said she agreed with the teacher, but thought of herself as an exception. The teacher however responding to her correct answers in class with "lucky guess", convinced Carol Dweck she was not an exception...and she went into another field. I loved her book. I hope it goes some way toward improving the situation for us all. One lesson I learned from Mindset is I believe it is realistic for woman to overcome negative messages. But it helps to understand the problem to overcome it.
Christi,
Thank you for correcting my misquote. I found the study very interesting.
Marian
Hi Laura,
I really appreciate you discussing Sheryl Sandberg's talk here. If you hadn't, I wouldn't have seen it, and I really liked it. I agree with your take - that she's pro-woman. I think sitting at the table is good advice. I think women can take it slow - just sit at the table, don't say anything at first if that's too intimidating, but just position yourself on an equal footing. That's the first step to moving forward.
And I'd like to clarify what Marian commented onfrom Why So Few. In Why So Few, we do describe psychological research from Madeline Heilman at NYU that shows that people judge women to be less competent than men in "male" fields and that when women are clearly competent at "male" jobs, they are judged to be less likable. A difficult situation, to be sure. But that doesn't mean that women can't be both ambitious and liked. Dr. Heilman's research shows that when women ARE seen as competent in "male" positions (a big hurdle), they can avoid being disliked by emphasizing their nurturing qualities. This may strike some people as unfair - that women shouldn't have to do this - but it's important to know that there are ways for women to be both successful and liked as scientists.
Thanks for posting about this,
Christi
Hi Phoebe and Toktam,
I love to hear the confidence. And I can attest to the fact that practice helps. I had no "voice" and thought I could never be a professor but I overcame that, just be taking on small chances to speak and finally I was OK with it. Negotiation workshops help with confidence too, especially the women-friendly ones AWIS offers. But that doesn't mean I don't understand the discomfort with this topic from Marian, Kendra, and Sherani. Yes, it's a problem how we are received if we behave with confidence. I think we can still do it, however.
best,
Laura
hi Laura
I am a PHD biotechnology student in Iran.I like to search and work about my interesting field, and I think if I WANT I will be successfull.there are many bad thinks about women condition in iran.but our restrictions in our country cant stop us from our dreams and hope.
Sorry to disagree with the respondents, but I agree with Laura. If you cannot develop the confidence to sit at the table with the big boys, you probably don't have what it takes to be successful in science - particularly scientific research.
Women in STEM have lots of REAL problems. Lets not encourage a myth that women are unable to develop the confidence to succeed. It just takes practice, self-discipline, and encouragement.
Laura,
It's a nice idea, but my experience is that taking the seat at the table and speaking out as men do doesn't work. Men are often uncomfortable with women behaving that way and find ways to aleviate their discomfort, usually by eliminating the source, the woman. She is moved to another position, not promoted, fired etc., anything to eliminate the "problem".
Wasn't it stated in the AAUW report "Why so few?" that a woman could either be ambitious or liked, but not both? That's the line that women have to walk; I'm not sure it can be done.
Marian
Hi Laura,
Well, I feel that I have free will myself. But I've tried to talk postdocs into sitting at the table, and mostly it's a fruitless effort on my part. They just aren't comfortable with it after an academic lifetime of put downs. So I'm afraid Sherani is right in general. We come with too much negative baggage to really have free will. And people like you who DO have the free (and me too) will tell it like it is for themselves, but that doesn't make it true for these other women. Make sense?
K
Hi Laura,
I think the people in your email were more like my position. I don't think it's realistic for many women, maybe even most women, to overcome all those negative messages and take charge as Sheryl and you think they should. I've seen an awful lot of women who cannot. Even that rant by Clay Sharkey you posted a year ago shows that it's not just a matter of saying to yourself you can do it: those were top-ranked women but they didn't assert themselves. Free will just doesn't work for a lot of women who've tried to go into STEM.
Sherani R
