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Published online 1 June 2009 | Nature | doi:10.1038/news.2009.534
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Earliest evidence for pottery making found
Fragments from a Chinese cave push back the dawn of the craft by more than 1,000 years.
Shards of pottery dating back 18,000 years have been unearthed in a cave in Hunan province, southern China.
The manufacture of ceramic pots and other items is generally associated with the change from Paleolithic hunter-gatherer societies into sedentary Neolithic communities, which began about 10,000 years ago in the eastern Mediterranean.
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All, Let's be skeptical here. This could very well be another hoax at worst, and nationalistic hype at best. Recall that China's interest is in self-aggrandizement and any discovery that supports their world view that they are the Center is pushed regardless of the evidence (real or imaginary). Besides, fired clay figurines have been documented from central Europe from the Paleolithic. Don't believe the hype!
Of course, we must be skeptical, that is the role of the scientist. But I see no hype here. Lets follow the science. Is the National Academies' peer review process somehow suspect? Or is it that good science can only be done in the West? That is what you seem to suggest when you characterize this as "nationalistic hype at best." Our skepticism must go both ways.
I wonder why they do not use TL/OSL technique for directly dating the pottery. It is a well established and well accepted technique for dating pottery. I am confident taht they would get a lot higher precision if they used TL/OSL
Response to Mr. Mojzsis. Please don't label all Chinese Scientists with your skewed view. Chinese are hard-working and practical, no need to hype, and steady catching up the West. Can you hype a very successful Olympics? Can you hype a fast-growing economy amid the financial crisis? If you like, read some books about Chinese acient history and culture.
Response to Michael Guo. As far as I have been told by some Chinese friends of mine, ANCIENT Chinese history and culture has nothing to do with NOWADAYS Chinese culture, in actual fact, and in general terms, much more related to neoliberal capitalism (hard working and practical indeed) than to buddhism, taoism or confuccianism.
1) China still does not accept the Out-Of_Africa origin of human beings despite genetic evidence. They think that the Chinese evolves from Chinese Homo erectus which evolves from Chinese monkeys which evolves from Chinese mammals. 2) China still thinks that their country begins 5,000 years ago , just like the Egyptians with the 'Hsia' dynasty , despite the lack of archeological evidence like Mesopotamia and Egypt, despite the fact that the word 'China' begins from 221BC Chin dynasty, and not Shang dynasty or any other dynasties.
No offense to anyone here, but why on earth be skeptical regarding a find of ancient, far east pottery? The accepted earliest pottery by pretty much every archaeologist working would be Jomon pottery, from Japan (not China, so I think we could leave out the deragotory comments about China scientists being frauds of one sort or another-almost seems like a racist comment really-or is it a politicaly motivated derision due to China being percieved as an "evil" communist country-regardless-those type of comments really have no place in this type of forum and just show a lack of knowledge really). Anyways, back to Jomon pottery, both Western & Eastern scientists ALL agree to it's age, without question really, and it is given, at it's most conservative estimates, a pre-agricultural age of at least 15,000 yrs old or more. Again, this is accepted by ALL scientists in the field and is pretty much common knowledge to anyone who knows even the littlest bit about the subject, so why be skeptical about a find in China of pottery possibly only a 1,000 yrs. older or so. This so called "major" discovery is not really so major or surprising in any way, and I dare say that ANY working historian or scientist (Western or Eastern) working in that field would barely raise an eyebrow over the discovery. What in the world is there to be skeptical about? The Far East is (& I'll reiterate this fact once again), accepted by ANYONE working in the field to be the home of the oldest pottery in the world, and is also accepted by EVERYONE in the field to be pre-agricultural, and once AGAIN, universaly accepted to be, at the very LEAST, to be 15,000 yrs. old or older. There is no controversy WHATSOEVER in this find, and no reason to be skeptical about any of this whatsoever. Go ask any high-school or middle-school social studies teacher if you doubt anything I'm telling you. You wouldn't even have to take the question to the University level for god's sake, that's how common knowledge this is. I mean really. In fact, not to blow anyone's mind or anything, but it is a universaly accepted fact in archeology, by EVERYONE, of 26,000 yr old pottery, that has been conclusively & unargueably dated, that was found at the Dolni Vestonice site in eastern Europe, as well as 13,000 yr old pottery, again UNIVERSALLY accepted by even the most orthodox and conservative experts in the field, that has been found in Siberia. So what is there to be "skeptical" about. Absolutely nothing really. I myself am only skeptical about people that will comment on a subject of which they, most obviously, don't know ANYTHING about, and yet still somehow manage to have an opinion about. I, for instance, know nothing about nuclear engineering for example, and therefore, would be smart enough after reading a short article concerning nuclear engineering, to realize that I didn't know enough about the subject to form a valid opinion on the article, (one free of any pre-concieved prejusdices especially) and would most probably just keep my mouth shut. While I'm by no means one of the smartest people on the planet, I AM smart enough to know it would be unwise & arrogant even, to state an opinion on ANY subject of which I knew absolutely NOTHING about. How could one possibly form an opinion on any topic when one lacks even a rudimentary knowledge on whatever the topic happened to be. Although, to my amazement, people do it all the time. I myself, am neither that arrogant nor irresponsible to give an opinion on something, unless I have, at the very least, SOME knowledge of the subject being discussed. Remember that it is usually smarter to be silent and thought the fool, (ESPECIALLY when you truly have NO idea what you are talking about anyways) as opposed to speaking, and therfore erasing any doubt as to actually being a fool. Oh well, such is life...
Response to ted delgaizo: Beg your pardon to see it clear that the finding is pushing back the beginning of pottery making by a few thousand years.It's not about saying the new finding there have 1000 years history.And Science has nothing to do with racist or Politics,so we should be calm with these things.
Response to Zhao-please look up the Dolni Vestonice site located in eastern Europe, and you will find well documented kiln-made pottery (figurines mostly) dated at, by most conservative estimates, at 26,000 years old. So this find is in no way at all "pushing back pottery making by a few thousand years". Please look this up online & then get back to me. Secondly, I believe the poster I responded to was recomending being skeptical of the new find because is is most probably a "hoax at worst or nationalistic hype at best" & frurthermore that we should all "recall China's interest is in self-aggrandizement and any discovery that supports their world view that they are the Center is pushed regardless of the evidence (real or imaginary)." That's the poster's direct quote, which, for whatever the reason, is basically accusing China's scientist's of falsyfying evidence to support their own "self-centered" world view. Furthermore, he is "reminding" this to us as if it is a known fact and common practice by China. Science does indeed have nothing at all to do with either racism or politics, but it would seem to me that accusing a country's scientists of being either frauds or charlatans does indeed have something to do with either race or politics. He even goes as far as to mention Piltdown Man. If those are not disparging remarks towards a country & their scientists (which he apparently doesn't think very highly of), then I don't know what you would consider a disparging remark. Regardless, as I have already mentioned, it is already an accepted scientific fact that pottery goes back over 20,000 years-look it up if you don't believe me. So, to me and my own personal opinion, the poster not only has no idea about the subject he is commenting on, but has managed to insult an entire nation's scientific community at the same time-for whatever the reason. And no, I'm not Chineese, I'm a born US citizen-I just have a character flaw-I have a very low tolerance for ignorance. I'm working on it tho :) But you are indeed correct in that calmness is always one's best recourse & I appreciate your post and your very valid point. Peace n Love to you n yours
Ooops, sorry, I was incorrect in the poster mentioning Piltdown Man. He doesn't. Although everything else I quoted him as saying is correct-read the 1st post by Stephen Mojzsis, which is whom I was actually responding to. And the funny thing I just realized is that he mentions the figurines from "central" Europe-(they are really from eastern Europe but he is close enough & he realizes that they have been dated from the Paleolithic-thus making them older then the finds made in China)-so I am seriously confused as to why he would think younger finds are either "hype" or a "hoax". Enough about him however; because for anyone really interested in the 26,000 yr old Europe figurines, I want to share a really, really interesting (I think) fact about them. Most of the figurines were exploded in the kiln, which, quite naturally, the scientists working the site thought was accidental and due to it being a new technology for that ancient time. However, interestingly enough, they replicated the kiln and the firing techniques used & realized that it actually had taken an intentuional effort on the part of the makers of the figurines as well as a really solid grasp of the technology, since many, many more figurines were exploded then would have happened either by accident or by shoddy techniques. They have since concluded that the figures were exploded ON PURPOSE by the makers, most likely due to some sort of ritualistc reason or practice. The figures were made to be exploded, which actualy took more effort & knowledge then just making them would have. It was now acepted by ALL academics that it was indeed done intentionaly, and was more difficult, which not only points to some sort of mystical or ritualistic purpose behind the figures creation and intentional destruction, but ALSO points to the makers being quite proficient with the technology, meaning that it was most probably NOT a new technology at even that remote date, but one that had been perfected over some fair amount of time. This would seem to point to the logical conclusion, and again, one that is pretty generaly accepted by the scientific community at large, that ceramics and pottery making predate even the unbelievably acient date of 26,000 yrs ago! The evidence of older ceramics then 26,000 years BP has yet to be found to conclusively prove this prevailing theory though, although again, it s a enerally acepted theory and certainly seems like a logical conclusion. Regardless, 26,000 old ceramics do indeed exist-in fact, the site seems to have been built & inhabitted for this very specialized purpose-a ceramics "factory" in eastern Europe that is, at most conservative estimates, 26,000 years old! I find this fascinating, and on the other hand, that is why 18,000 yr old pottery in China is neither shocking nor unreasonable, and is really not even that important of a find really. Whomever wrote the artice didn't do very much homework on the ENTIRE topic of ancient ceramics really. Don't get me wrong-it's an important find-but not a "records" one at all and does nothing at all to push the dating of ancient ceramics back in any way. Anyone interested could just google "Dolni Vestonice", and find all this info out in about 5 min spent online. Check it out. Dr. James Shreeve (a famous Neanderthal expert, scientist, and author), goes even further then this and presents a theory and compelling evidence to back it up which is even more astounding. I would recomend reading his book "The Neanderthal Enigma". I won't ruin the book completely for anyone, cuz it's full of amazing stuff, but I will say (as crazy as this might sound) that the words "ceramics" and "Neanerthals" have been mentioned in the same sentence by more then one leading scientist! Colin Renfrew, an Oxford Art historian and author of "Lost Civilizations of the Stone Age" would be some recommended reading as well. Interesting & fascinating stuff in both books, both written by acknowledged and leading experts in their respective fields. Peace out everyone.
One more oooops and this is my last post, I promise-meant to say Richard Rudgley wrote "lost civilizations of stone age", not Colin Renfrew....sorry
So where is the earliest pottery?
Response to Ted:It was funny to talk to u as far as I can learn some.Thanks.But maybe we have not make it clear,that the author didn't mean China it's the earliest place where pottery originate,he just mean to express as the finding there push back the years of China's or East Asia from 15,000 to 18,000. I truely accept the view about pottery history,and we could also remenber the tech-peak as "tri-colored glazed pottery of the Tang Dynasty".We should be skeptical,and respectful to scientist from wherever.There was no reason to mock any country's science community by an imaginary debate. All the best~
Response to Quantum: Kiln-made pottery (figurines mostly) dated at 26,000 years old found in Dolni Vestonice(Czech)in eastern Europe,was the earliest ever documented.
Thanks Karen. There is always this egoistic fight to be the earliest. :)
The story is about pot-making - and the oldest known date of evidence of that craft. Clay figurines were indeed made earlier.