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Feuding physicists turn to philosophy for help

String theory is at the heart of a debate over the integrity of the scientific method itself.

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R. Windhorst, Arizona State Univ./H. Yan, Spitzer Science Center, Caltech/ESA/NASA

The idea that our Universe is part of a multiverse poses a challenge to philosophers of science.

Is string theory science? Physicists and cosmologists have been debating the question for the past decade. Now the community is looking to philosophy for help.

Earlier this month, some of the feuding physicists met with philosophers of science at an unusual workshop aimed at addressing the accusation that branches of theoretical physics have become detached from the realities of experimental science. At stake is the integrity of the scientific method, as well as the reputation of science among the general public, say the workshop’s organizers.

Held at the Ludwig Maximilian University of Munich in Germany on 7–9 December, the workshop came about as a result of an article in Nature a year ago, in which cosmologist George Ellis, of the University of Cape Town in South Africa, and astronomer Joseph Silk, of Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, Maryland, lamented a “worrying turn” in theoretical physics (G. Ellis and J. Silk Nature 516, 321–323; 2014).

“Faced with difficulties in applying fundamental theories to the observed Universe,” they wrote, some scientists argue that “if a theory is sufficiently elegant and explanatory, it need not be tested experimentally”.

First among the topics discussed was testability. For a scientific theory to be considered valid, scientists often require that there be an experiment that could, in principle, rule the theory out — or ‘falsify’ it, as the philosopher of science Karl Popper put it in the 1930s. In their article, Ellis and Silk pointed out that in certain areas, some theoretical physicists had strayed from this guiding principle — even arguing for it to be relaxed.

The duo cited string theory as the principal example. The theory replaces elementary particles with infinitesimally thin strings to reconcile the apparently incompatible theories that describe gravity and the quantum world. The strings are too tiny to detect using today’s technology — but some argue that string theory is worth pursuing whether or not experiments will ever be able to measure its effects, simply because it seems to be the ‘right’ solution to many quandaries.

Silk and Ellis also called out another theory that seems to have abandoned ‘Popperism’: the concept of a multiverse, in which the Big Bang spawned many universes — most of which would be radically different fromour own.

But in the opening talk at the workshop, David Gross, a theoretical physicist at the University of California, Santa Barbara, drew a distinction between the two theories. He classified string theory as testable “in principle” and thus perfectly scientific, because the strings are potentially detectable.

Much more troubling, he says, are concepts such as the multiverse because the other universes that it postulates probably cannot be observed from our own, even in principle. “Just to argue that [string theory] is not science because it’s not testable at the moment is absurd,” says Gross, who shared a Nobel prize in 2004 for his work on the strong nuclear force, which is well tested in experiments, and has also made important contributions to string theory.

“Suggestions that we need ‘new methods’ have been made, but attempts to replace empirical testability have always failed.”

Workshop attendee Carlo Rovelli, a theoretical physicist at Aix-Marseille University in France, agrees that just because string theory is not testable now does not mean that it is not worth theorists’ time. But the main target of Ellis and Silk’s piece were observations made by philosopher Richard Dawid of Ludwig Maximilian University in his book String Theory and the Scientific Method (Cambridge Univ. Press, 2013). Dawid wrote that string theorists had started to follow the principles of Bayesian statistics, which estimates the likelihood of a certain prediction being true on the basis of prior knowledge, and later revises that estimate as more knowledge is acquired. But, Dawid notes, physicists have begun to use purely theoretical factors, such as the internal consistency of a theory or the absence of credible alternatives, to update estimates, instead of basing those revisions on actual data.

Dynamic discussion

At the workshop, Gross, who has suggested that a lack of alternatives to string theory makes it more likely to be correct, sparred with Rovelli, who has worked for years on an alternative called loop quantum gravity. Rovelli flatly opposes the assumption that there are no viable alternatives. Ellis, meanwhile, rejects the idea that theoretical factors can improve odds. “My response to Bayesianism is: new evidence must be experimental evidence,” he says.

Others flagged up separate issues surrounding the use of Bayesian statistics to bolster string theory. Sabine Hossenfelder, a physicist at the Nordic Institute for Theoretical Physics in Stockholm, said that the theory’s popularity may have contributed to the impression that it is the only game in town. But string theory probably gained momentum for sociological reasons, she said: young researchers may have turned to it because the job prospects are better than in a lesser-known field, for example.

Historian of science Helge Kragh of Aarhus University in Denmark drew on historical perspective. “Suggestions that we need ‘new methods of science’ have been made before, but attempts to replace empirical testability with some other criteria have always failed,” he said. But at least the problem is confined to just a few areas of physics, he added. “String theory and multiverse cosmology are but a very small part of what most physicists do.”

That is cold comfort to Rovelli, who stressed the need for a clear distinction between scientific theories that are well established by experiments and those that are speculative. “It’s very bad when people stop you in the street and say, ‘Did you know that the world is made of strings and that there are parallel worlds?’.”

At the end of the workshop, the feuding physicsts did not seem any closer to agreement. Dawid — who co-organized the event with Silk, Ellis and others — says that he does not expect people to change their positions in a fundamental way. But he hopes that exposure to other lines of reasoning might “result in slight rapprochement”. Ellis suggests that a more immersive format, such as a two-week summer school, might be more successful at producing a consensus.

Journal name:
Nature
Volume:
528,
Pages:
446–447
Date published:
()
DOI:
doi:10.1038/528446a

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  1. Avatar for Robert Traill
    Robert Traill
    Please --- Some “FIRST PRINCIPLES” first! --- (wherever possible) . . . . E.g. (1) What exactly is a Theory? (given that it may have a psychological component) (2) “Why Trust [any particular given] Theory?” These questions deal with EPISTEMOLOGY --- and not Physics-as-such at all! i.e. “Scientific Method” (a branch of Epistemology, alias “Knowledge-Study”) is a meta-topic in its own right, so that specialists in Physics, or Chem, or Geology etc., will not necessarily be up-to-date in the EXTRA topic of epistemology. So excuse my disappointment; I was hoping for a more general advance in epistemology:-- The conference Title “Why Trust a Theory?” invites an epistemological discussion, yet this angle was somewhat hidden in amongst the physics. Thus Castelvecchi’s summary devoted only three brief paragraphs to general epistemology:- one quoting Kragh’s historical/backward-looking view, plus the two paragraphs (#3 & #4) which merely outline the standard debate: whether “elegance-&-explanatory-virtue” can ever suffice without observation/experiment. The trouble is that every word in such statements is likely to be a philosophical minefield! --- and (e.g.) any person’s idea of “elegance” will probably embody important tacit background knowledge, and some of it may well be important, even though “unaudited”. Thus one way forward might be to try to “audit” and analyse such concepts in extensive detail. . . Of course ultimately there may indeed be no reachable empirical-or-other solution for the string-theory and multiverse cases --- but it could be seen as simplistic (and imprudently inductivistic) to infer that attempts to downgrade the role of empirical testability will ALWAYS fail. . . [The main current view within epistemology is that BOTH observational AND coherence-seeking evidence are needed --- though not necessarily at the same time --- but that even our observational abilities are themselves partially dependent on coherence/evolutionary developments (as implied above). . . . It also notes that we adults have a vast background of tacit assumptions about the world; and as we are mostly unaware of them, we usually fail to take them into account. Hence we are deluded into seeing “perfection” in our procedures such as experimentation, reasoning, or listing supposedly infallible axioms --- and meanwhile undervalue our “unaudited” instincts-and-hidden-abilities, though of course these generate their own problems. (Cushan 1983/2014 --- www.ondwelle.com/ValueJudgements.pdf --- also cited below).] . . Thus, if we take literally the report’s implication that: “attempts to REPLACE empirical testability with some other criteria” will always fail --- then it is easy to agree, because of the apparent need for BOTH. __________________ My own longterm agenda centres on understanding the Mind/Brain and its likely micro-mechanisms. That is another area with huge observational problems, but it maybe has some advantages over string-theory and M: --- E.g.:- If only we can identify basic units of behaviour-&/or-thought at BOTH the clinical level AND at the likely biophysical level the we have a fairly firm basis for using these as “bricks” for future speculative modelling. --- Anyhow I invite readers to examine this ongoing project epistemologically with a view to either . . (i) criticizing it &/or . . (ii) maybe borrowing any tactics which seem useful in other fields such as pure physics. . . . If interested, one might perhaps start with (1988/2009). “The case that mammalian intelligence is based on sub-molecular memory coding and fibre-optic capabilities of myelinated nerve axons”. Speculations in Science and Technology. 11(3), 173-181. . . http://www.ondwelle.com/OSM10en.pdf &/or maybe the project-précis (2009): http://www.ondwelle.com/OSM12.pdf (31 pp) [or the PowerPoint précis of that! --- (2012) www.ondwelle.com/MolecularScheme.ppt . . which is also available in several other languages, e.g. French www.ondwelle.com/MolecularSchemeFr.ppt --- or De, Es, Ba, Th]. . . . But for physicists or epistemologists, the best account is perhaps (2011) “…to explain Piagetian psychology and neuro-microanatomy — … and the importance of coherent theory”. Journal of Physics: Conference Series, 329, 012018. http://iopscience.iop.org/1742-6596/329/1/012018 . ________________ . . Popper’s role (1934) in the epistemology debates has been important but ultimately unfortunate, and that was generally realized amongst epistemologists (if not scientists) by about 1980! Arguably his two basic mistakes were (i) His main agenda of opposing induction (admittedly fallible, but now recognized as essential anyhow --- Cushan (1983, loc.cit. above) &/or Hilary Putnam (2002) "The Collapse of the Fact/Value Dichotomy", Harvard U.P. --- 067-4009053). (ii) Tacitly accepting the empiricist agenda of the Vienna Circle when he could have explicitly ALSO allowed “testing” to include tests for internal consistency --- which is arguably JUST AS important as the observable empirical tests in the outside world. Testing is surely vital, but don’t we need BOTH types? . . One relevant case study is Traill (2005) “How Popperian positivism killed a good-but-poorly-presented theory --- Insect Communication by Infrared", Gen.Sci.J., http://www.ondwelle.com/OSM03.pdf ________________ I note that there is soon to be another epistemology conference in Munich: “First Principles in Science: Their Epistemic Status and Justification” --- June 10, 2016 - June 11, 2016; . . Munich Center for Mathematical Philosophy].
  2. Avatar for Andrew Eppink
    Andrew Eppink
    What a ridiculous controversy. Strings are far removed from experimental verification but so what? If they'll help push things along, what's the problem? If ultimately they don't, that's life. Some judgement in pursuing research is obviously required. What's the big deal?
  3. Avatar for Abed Peerally
    Abed Peerally
    Nicely put and I agree. Actually when I will publish my TOE, I am sincerely looking forward to several mathematically talented String and M theories researchers to engage in the follow up new physics to my TOE. My humble advice, if it is welcome, is to start to read about the nature of consciousness and about neurology and fuzzy systems, DNAs, mutations etc.
  4. Avatar for Pentcho Valev
    Pentcho Valev
    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-string-theory-science/ Is String Theory Science? - Scientific American http://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2015/12/23/why-string-theory-is-not-science/ Why String Theory Is Not A Scientific Theory - Forbes Is Einstein's relativity science? The answer is no: http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~djmorin/chap11.pdf Introduction to Classical Mechanics With Problems and Solutions, David Morin, Cambridge University Press, Chapter 11, p. 14: "Twin A stays on the earth, while twin B flies quickly to a distant star and back. (...) For the entire outward and return parts of the trip, B does observe A's clock running slow, but enough strangeness occurs during the turning-around period to make A end up older. Note, however, that a discussion of acceleration is not required to quantitatively understand the paradox..." The above multiple absurdity cannot be produced by a SCIENTIFIC theory. Pentcho Valev
  5. Avatar for Alone: bad. Friend: good!
    Alone: bad. Friend: good!
    Is energy equal to length? How about speed? Is speed equal to mass? No, of course not. So everyone needs to stop saying mass and energy are equal -- they are not equal. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ENERGY CANNOT BE OUT ON ITS OWN ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Everyone has the wrong idea of what energy, forces and fields are. Energy is a particle vibration or movement. You cannot have energy without a mass, energy is mass vibrating. Energy cannot be out on its own. (a supposed mass-less particle is a particle nonetheless, but there are no mass-less particles, so that's irrelevant) Same thing goes for forces. A force is a group of particles arranged in a field pulling each other... and all of the particles absolutely have to be physically connected. A force (a group of connected particles) can only push very short distances and in rare circumstances like same pole magnets. But the point is... a force has to have particles involved. A force cannot be out on its own. Most of mainstream physics is a misconception. There is no such thing as pure energy. Again... Energy is a vibration on a particle (or particle movement). Can energy be converted into mass? Ummm... no, energy already has mass involved, it is a particle vibration or movement. There is no pure energy and you are not going to convert energy into mass. Think of a guitar string. If you pluck it... that is the energy. If you remove the guitar string from the scenario... can you still have the energy? No, of course not. Can you convert the guitar string vibration into mass? No... that is ridiculous. Look at what everything really is... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ DIMENSIONS AND UNITS ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ........mass = [M] = kilograms ......length = [L] = meters ........time = [T] = seconds ...frequency = [T^-1] = seconds ^-1 .......speed = [L]/[T] ...... = m/s acceleration = [L]/[T^2] .... = m/s^2 ....momentum = [M][L]/[T] ... = kg_m/s .......force = [M][L]/[T^2] . = kg_m/s^2 ......energy = [M][L^2]/[T^2] = kg_m^2/s^2 .......power = [M][L^2]/[T^3] = kg_m^2/s^3 Notice mass [M] is not equal to energy [M] [L^2] / [T^2] ...the vibration is missing Here is what Einsteins famous equation really looks like... [M] [L^2] / [T^2] = [M] [L^2] / [T^2] Energy already is a mass times speed^2. If you could just lop-off parts of an equation and claim whatever is left is equal... i.e. "energy equals mass" then you could also say that "power equals mass" and so does momentum and force. It is really stupid to think like that. Speed is NOT equal to length. Speed is equal to length divided by time. Energy is NOT equal to mass. Energy is equal to mass times speed squared.
  6. Avatar for Raj Kamal
    Raj Kamal
    My query is: What is 'mass' which in motion is 'energy'? And what is the source of 'mass'? Can such queries have an end or these are circular and their end-point is again the starting-point? Finally, what is the original source of strings?
  7. Avatar for Alone: bad. Friend: good!
    Alone: bad. Friend: good!
    I've already explained what mass and energy are and how everything works in other comments. "What is the original source of strings?" -- meaning the stuff the Universe is made from. There are 3 choices... 1) Stuff popped here out of nothing   <-- stupid B) Stuff has always been here     <-- insanity C3) Everything was created       <--- possible NOTE: if everything was created the only way to do it is either "1" or "B"
  8. Avatar for Raj Kamal
    Raj Kamal
    Thanks for prompt reply.
  9. Avatar for Alone: bad. Friend: good!
    Alone: bad. Friend: good!
    Can you answer this... If you were going to test if there is a medium for the conveyance of light, would you... A) Test if the Earth is rushing through the medium. 2) Test if the Earth is NOT rushing through the medium. C3) Both of the above (same as: just test for medium, no constraints)
  10. Avatar for Raj Kamal
    Raj Kamal
    Our perceptions/conceptions(including perceptions/conceptions sharpened by all our most sophisticated gizmos or even visualized by mathematical measurements/logic). Our tests(including experiments) appear to be falling short of our target medium. Space may be one entity speculated to be that medium. Time entity and vacuum energy or Cosmological Constant may be the nearest rivals.
  11. Avatar for qiwu hu
    qiwu hu
    spacetimology!
  12. Avatar for qiwu hu
    qiwu hu
    Hu‘space time quantum theory Introduction "Hu quantum space-time theory" (referred HQW), after ten years of natural sciences specialized learning, ten years of dedicated to learning and thinking, writing for four years, since May 18, 2015 began, the world's two more than ten advanced countries (United States, Canada, Australia, France, Britain, Russia, Germany, Finland, Switzerland, Italy, Pakistan, India, Argentina, Mexico, South, Portugal, Greece, Singapore, Japan, Korea) and regions 80 a number of research institutions and scientific organizations and the mainstream news media and issued more than 4,000 copies of e-mail for publicity, as of today, has been more than six months, foreign and Hong Kong and Taiwan to promote its nearing completion. It is to use physical methods, scientific explanation of the origin and evolution of the universe and of elementary particles. According to modern physics: time / space / mass / energy / electric / magnetic / wave / force / gravity etc. described further analysis to know their essence. In the conventional electromagnetic theory, quantum theory, cosmology, astrophysics, particle physics, and so on the basis of multi-dimensional space, combined with space, time and space Hu established quantum theory. It is easily explained by the gravitational gap gravitational principle, we see the shortcomings of Newton's theory; Einstein general relativity is also very easy to understand the mystery. It proposed a new classification of celestial bodies and elementary particle classification method proposed two types of space-time concept and anti-temporal concept, it is easy to understand black / white hole / DS, but also easy to understand why the anti-matter / dark matter and dark them? Why black? Why Anti? And the location and manner of their existence. Scientific understanding of human nature provide an accurate theoretical guidance system. No matter how many years mankind again, no matter how scientific development, only to return to the track of Hu quantum space-time, in order to understand the nature of nature. Once the human control of its border control technology atomic mass exchange, will be able to local control gravity, change production of human life. Hu is the basis of quantum theory, space-time super cutting-edge research, the world's leading major significance and role, and look forward to your support and attention. HQW also made scientific advice and recommendations for the financial investment and private investment. 1 against the government invested directly operating photovoltaic solar power project Rationale: According HQW, solar power over matter and movement patterns within the solar system objects small. If you get an additional solar substances therein (genus quantum energy, and nuclear and other energy is not the same as others), the integrated environmental and economic benefits for the negative. Non-special circumstances and special needs, government at all levels can not invest. 2 against the central government invested dark matter deep space exploration Rationale: According to existing theories of physics to calculate the orbits of celestial bodies and quality of the goods and use gravitational lensing observations confirm the view that dark matter does not participate in the reaction electromagnetic pervasive entity substance only about 5% less. In the Chinese-American Nobel Prize winner Professor Ding Zhaozhong and often into the team's chief researcher for the Chinese Academy of Sciences team, based on the dark matter is dark matter, antimatter, dark matter and its antimatter principle but the reactants can be observed, with the full support of national finances under, develop satellite to explore. Due to defects in the theory, the research is doomed to fail. (This is the spirit of science, is not a personal attack. I personally have great respect for them). HQW pointed out the dark matter why the dark? Where? In what way exists. Thus firmly opposed to the central government investment. 3 in favor of visible light communication research does not encourage ............... .. 4 supports neutrino research ............... .. 5 support graphene and atomic research material to its boundary exchange
  13. Avatar for Jean Darch
    Jean Darch
    String theory science or not, is a relevant question. What we need now are structural alternatives to explain the nature of the universe. Einstein´s 4D model is more 2D (3 spatial + 1 time). Too many correction constants are needed and the explanations are closer to patch works that functional systems. Strings are one of them. MISTdimensions tries to offer system level structure first. https://mistdimensions.wordpress.com/about MIST has four dimensions as a base (Materia, Idea, Space, Time). Therefore so many correction constants are not needed and the structures are more understandable.
  14. Avatar for Raj Kamal
    Raj Kamal
    Plethora of wisdom flooding down this column make-believing that our world has completed a circular tour reinventing the modern replicas of Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Moses, Spinoza, Hegel, Kant, Newton, Einstein, Feynman and so on, so forth. Some holding strings, some balls, some arcs, some shields, some with thrusts of pointed logic---all eagerly distributing pearls of wisdom freely for populace. Time is now to use the simplest possible language to explain theories accepted with consensus by theorists and experimenters.
  15. Avatar for Abed Peerally
    Abed Peerally
    Wise bit of summary of the plethora of wisdom exuded by the article. The wisest one is something i have said several times earlier: the TOE will be the end of a journey where philosophy and science will arrive at the winning point with equal honours.
  16. Avatar for Raj Kamal
    Raj Kamal
    Even if the dream of achieving the TOE is realized, we may know add more comprehensive knowledge of the elusive entity known as "ENERGY". The mystery of "how the energy itself was born and what is its real source" shall be a tough target both by scientists & philosophers.
  17. Avatar for Alone: bad. Friend: good!
    Alone: bad. Friend: good!
    Sorry, you have the wrong idea of energy. Check here... http://www.nature.com/news/feuding-physicists-turn-to-philosophy-for-help-1.19076/#comment-2428063462
  18. Avatar for Raj Kamal
    Raj Kamal
    Your explanation of 'energy' is a hearty meals for thoughts. It has further deepened the mystery of this entity which spawned SR & GR. Is your explanation tantamount to denial of E=mc^2 ?
  19. Avatar for Abed Peerally
    Abed Peerally
    The TOE will also be the beginning of a lot of new physics in an incredible manner But philosophy will also have a lot to think about in constrructive ways. Theology will also thrive. If I have a TOE it will imperatively spawn innovative ways of seeing the realities of the universe in a manner which has not so far been suspected. Energy too will become clearer. TOE will tell exactly when time first appears. It will also show that physics was the first science, and that maths were brought in to turn physics into a science. Before physics there were no maths really because there were no physical realities of existence.
  20. Avatar for Alone: bad. Friend: good!
    Alone: bad. Friend: good!
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ YOU ARE FOOLED INTO BELIEVING THE TRUTH ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Everything is made from strings (not the string theory type). Strings (from any theory) are supposedly one dimensional 1-D. Clusters of strings form protons, neutrons, electrons and when they group together they make atoms. Atoms of course form everything matter-wise -- that includes you. So you think you are 3-D but you are actually made from 1-D strings A string of course has a length but it would also have to have and infinitesimally small thickness, that would give it a height and width, or three dimensions 3-D. So you are fooled into thinking you are 3-D but it is actually the truth. You are fooled into believing the truth.
  21. Avatar for Alone: bad. Friend: good!
    Alone: bad. Friend: good!
    There is an all encompassing lattice-type string particle field (not the string theory type) in space (and everywhere). The field is made from individual yet connected particles and conforms to whatever shape it is surrounding. So light traveling through a curved field (like the Earth or Sun) will of course curve. Is gravity curving the field? No! The field itself is what creates gravity (gravity is field tension). Does this invalidate any of Einsteins equations? Of course not, it is just another way to look at it. Einstein has field equations and this is the field. The particles are connected -- that creates a field. The field has tension on it so vibrations can easily travel through it on the strings . That's what light is... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ WHY THE SPEED OF LIGHT IS "C" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ There is a high tension string particle field in space (not the string theory type). Everything is connected by the particle field and it moves along with largest mass in proximity (something like what gravitational fields would be doing). A good 2-D model would be something like a spiders web (individual string lengths are approximately one Ångström). Now imagine an infinite 3-D spiders web. If a vibration was set off in it, it would travel forever and the speed the vibrations travel (through the net) is the speed of light (that's actually what light is, a vibration traveling through a string particle field) The speed vibrations travel through the particle field is the speed of light "c" The particle field strings have a certain amount of tension, length and mass. That makes 'c' the speed it is. If the tension, length or mass changed so would 'c' Here is a regular string tension formula... Tension = velocity squared x mass / Length. If we plug c in and rearrange we get... TL = mc^2 Both sides of the equation are in joules or energy... equivalent to "E". It means the Tension of the strings in space times their length is equal to their energy. This is why the speed of light is involved in Einsteins mass energy equivalence equation... E = mc^2 ...and actually why light travels at the speed of light... I always wondered why... now I know. It had to be something mechanical... tension and string lengths! So, you can arrive at Einsteins famous formula from completely different directions. You can think energy is contained in mass and released. E = mc^2 Or you can think there is a particle field of strings and mass is inert, the energy is only potential... released (actually pulled) by tension on the strings. TL = mc^2 They are equivalent. Which is correct? You do not know. Tesla was correct... "There is no energy in matter other than that received from the environment." – Nikola Tesla Mnemonic memory device... E for Einstein: E = mc^2 TL for Tesla: TL = mc^2 NOTE: if you think MM is correct go to "THE GENIUS OF MICHELSON-MORLEY" comment and pick "A"
  22. Avatar for Alone: bad. Friend: good!
    Alone: bad. Friend: good!
    Everything is of course made from string. Here is the way some basic structures work Every particle starts with radii (strings) that are arranged in the dodecahedral axis shape That's the vertices of the dodecahedron or the faces of the icosahedron (platonic solids.) This is a way stuff can form and happen automatically. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ISOTOPES AND NUCLEUS FORMATIONS / CONSTRUCTION ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ When the strings of a particle are balled up or collapsed... they are a proton or neutron. The individual radii (1 of 20 strings) are the connectors used to connect neutrons to protons (balled up) and protons to electrons (full length but twisted together). Everything is made out of the same particle and every particle has 20 strings unless it is smashed up deformed matter. A proton has one string balled (tightly wound together) with a neutron, 18 balled by themselves and one full length twist connected to an electron. A free proton would look like this   ~~~●~~~     (that's one free string, 18 balled, one free string) A free neutron would look like this   ●~~~     (19 balled, and one free string) A free electron would look like this   ---∗---     (one free string, 18 free strings in a disc shape, one free string) A proton can grab a neutron and an electron. ●~~~ ~~~●~~~ ---∗---     (NPE on the loose)            ●●~~~∗---     (NPE combined) (that's a neutron with its previously free string balled up together with one of the proton's previously free strings (now also balled up) and the other proton string is twisted with an electron string (that free proton string and electron string twists are still full length)) Two free protons   ~~~●~~~ ~~~●~~~   can combine and still be 2 protons   ~~~●●~~~   (that might look like 2 free neutrons but it is not because there are also balled up strings in the middle of the package holding them together. To clarify: two free neutrons   ●~~~ ~~~●   that are now combined would look like this   ●●   If you throw another free proton into that 2 proton package   ~~~●●~~~ ~~~●~~~ you will get one changing into a neutron when they combine   ~~~●●●~~~   that's Helium-3 If 4 free protons   ~~~●~~~ ~~~●~~~ ~~~●~~~ ~~~●~~~ ...grab each other 2 will change into neutrons   ~~~●●●●~~~ And then the outer two that still have a free string can grab electrons... ---∗~~~●●●●~~~∗---   that's regular Helium, it can also be called Helium-4 If you understand the way this works... with a little thinking anyone can figure out isotopes. For instance why 3 protons would not make lithium-3 ... i.e. why there can be extra neutrons but not just a bunch of protons (or extra protons)... we've just seen that above the way Helium-3 was created. Nucleus 3 can only be helium-3   ~~~●●●~~~   or Hydrogen-3 (tritium)   ●●●~~~   (Lithium-3 would be a nucleus with 3 protons and zero neutrons... and that can't be a nucleus) "Lithium-4 contains three protons and one neutron. This is the shortest-lived known isotope of lithium. It decays by proton emission to helium-3 with half-life of about 10^−23 seconds." ~~~●~~~ ~~~●~~~ ~~~●~~~ ~~~●~~~     (start with 4) ~~~●●●~~~ ~~~●~~~     (combine in only way possible to make 3 protons, 1 neutron... notice one proton is on the loose... not attached to nucleus, say goodbye, it's unstable, eject it) Atom Something like an atom with Protons, Neutrons and Electrons has to be the correct model. Things are different weights, different colors, different properties, etc. but everything has to be made out of the same thing. An atom is the way to do it. They almost have the model correct... but everything is actually just strings and tension Electron    ---∗--- An electron is shaped like the metal spines of an umbrella (without the hinges or fabric of course). One string extents from where your hand would hold it up to the center of axis. There, eighteen strings (or radii) extent out in the same curved disc type shape as the umbrella. The last string goes straight up (the same length as all the rest) and connects with the field in space (space is made of the same stuff by the way). Notice the way some elements in vertical columns in the Periodic table chart have an atomic number with difference of 18 between them. Most of the chart is like that (notice how many columns there are). It's because 18 is the determinant number in electron shell configuration. Every electron particle has 20 strings. One string is attached to the proton. One string connects with space (or an electron in the next outer shell). The other 18 strings form the electron disc. When electrons connect with each other they have 18 strings to play with. Check the larger noble gases: Argon 18, Krypton 36, Xenon 54, Radon 86, the amount of electrons in outermost shells will always sum to 18, the first three even have atomic numbers that are multiples of eighteen. Three groups of six radii from one electron can form (along with seven other electrons) the corners of a cube or the "Octet Rule" and seal off the package. Important note: Electrons are actually particles but they (the strings they are made from) form a mesh-like cage around the nucleus. They are also held in place by string connections to the protons. An electron is actually not moving... only the vibrations that are traveling around the strings are moving... and that's what everyone mistakenly thinks an electron is. Electrons (particles) cannot orbit around a nucleus. The protons are stationary and the (multiple) electrons that supposedly are orbiting would require a massive amount of bearings and axles. And they would also interfere with each others orbits. You can't use "force" as the holder (or carrier) because any force is also made from particles or their connection. To make matters worse... an equatorial orbit (supposedly happening) would need something like a circular track around the proton (actually the nucleus as a whole) with a sliding connection. That's ridiculous. Proton    ~~~●~~~ The proton is 20 strings (like everything else) one string radii is attached to a neutron, one is attached to a electron and the other 18 remaining string radii are balled up or collapsed. If the strings collapse in groups of three each that would make 6 groups (3 * 6 = 18) or six types of (what they call) Quarks. And if they collapse in groups of six each that would make 3 groups (6 * 3 = 18) or three (what they call) Quarks in three flavors. Maybe the grouping during collapse happens in different numbers like... 3, 6 and 9 ...that still sums to 18 strings. The jury is still out on all of this Quark business. When they smash up protons they assume they have found different subatomic particles because of the different weights. That is just a different number of strings being smashed apart. If you magnified a proton until it was the size of the dot above the letter "i" then the strings could be compared to something a lot finer than the web of a spider extending out a few hundred meters. Fine enough where eighteen strings can curl into a space the size of the proton and have a spaghetti ball type configuration with a very loose string (or filament) pack. It is the way to make the most universe with the least amount of material. And only one type of material. Neutron    ●~~~ A neutron is the same as proton but with 19 string radii balled up or collapsed. And when it is in the nucleus all 20 are collapsed (although one of the 20 is collapsed in unison with a proton string) One Proton string and one Neutron string balled up or collapsed together is called a Meson. neutron proton electron neutron proton electron on the loose =     ●--- ---●--- ---∗--- neutron + proton + electron combined =    ●●---∗--- Neutrino    A Neutrino is a completely balled up or collapsed particle (all 20 strings) or a group of completely balled up particles ●● NOT connected to the field or anything else. The speed of light is completely irrelevant to a Neutrino. The speed of light is field stuff, the neutrino is on its own. You could say the Neutrino is in the "ultimate time" zone.
  23. Avatar for Peter MetaSkeptic
    Peter MetaSkeptic
    3 ring circus in town and kids are out of control. Any grown-up nearby?
  24. Avatar for Ilya Grushevskiy
    Ilya Grushevskiy
    Aristotle (though not having created the scientific method at the time), made the distinction between his, early, scientific method and what is beyond. His Physics treatise was based on theory based on evidence, experiment - at least some a-posteriori deductions. His Metaphysics - 'after'physics, was all a-priori - simply logical deduction (the greatest chase in his mind, as it was all based on reason alone). String theory stands closer to the a-priori side of his treatise, as it is experimentally lacking. However - if it is based, at its core, on mathematics and reason. And as the sphere of experimental science widens, so inferences without experiment becomes more and more probabilistically useful. Take a random example: in a pack of 52 cards, none of the 52 seen and removed - pick 1, and guess what it is. In a pack of 52 cards, 50 seen and removed, pick one and guess what it is.. Just a question of how close we are to describing existence completely.. If we are at 1%, string theory is metaphysics (philosophy, religion etc). If our experimental knowledge stands at 97%, well our ability to infer from previous truths stand a much higher chance of success. For our Hubble volume, the core theories of physics have accurately described a good fraction of length/speed/temperature scales. Therefore we can argue that hypothesis lacking experimental evidence can be of some value now, so long as it does not stand against important 'axiomatic' principles found in our experiments!
  25. Avatar for Hiro Kawabata
    Hiro Kawabata
    If I had spent much of my professional life working on a hypothesis, such as string theory, that first appeared to lead to a TOE and instead ended up a dead end of no testable predictions, then I suppose that I too might find myself attempting to rationalize moving the goalpost with regards to what science is. This faux issue will resolve itself as the current aging generation of string theory proponents dies off.
  26. Avatar for Alone: bad. Friend: good!
    Alone: bad. Friend: good!
    Sorry Fella, everything has to be made from strings -- nothing other than strings works. NOT the string theory type though, string theory strings are an horrible model. The main-streamers are the ones that need to die-off. You plagiarized Max Planck... "A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it." -- Max Planck If you want some pataphysical nonsense -- look at this... https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Neutron_QCD_Animation.gif/120px-Neutron_QCD_Animation.gif https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_charge
  27. Avatar for Hiro Kawabata
    Hiro Kawabata
    Don't try to waste my time. Stick to posting your pataphysics nonsense.
  28. Avatar for Raj Kamal
    Raj Kamal
    Kapil telang's reference to scientific concepts enshrined in Upanishads, I am thrilled to be reminded of the most profound concept of Theory Of Everything stated in very simple language in two-line of shaloka(stanza) to the effect: The fastest signal/code information communication is instantaneous in the entire universe. The particle/field of the particle/wave appears as stationary as well as pervasive in the entire physical existence. The Upanishad is known as ISHAVASYA UPANISHAD comprising of only 18 two-line stanzas. At the time when Upanishads were written in 3rd or 4th century B.C., no sophisticated instruments and labs were available, these and other similar concepts were intuitive in nature.
  29. Avatar for kapil telang
    kapil telang
    I think science has a long way to go to reach where ancient Indian Sages have reached.Reading Vedas and Upnishads from a "scientific" point of view gives us lot more info on "Theory of Everything" then current scientific theories.The only thing is we need to experimentally prove that.But are all current theories scientifically proven or perfectly correct?Sometimes we need to go back to basics,change our view point and then advance.
  30. Avatar for Alone: bad. Friend: good!
    Show parent comment
    Alone: bad. Friend: good!
    If you were going to test if there is a medium for the conveyance of light, would you... A) Test if the Earth is rushing through the medium. 2) Test if the Earth is NOT rushing through the medium. C3) Both of the above (same as: just test for medium, no constraints)
  31. Avatar for Abed Peerally
    Abed Peerally
    Interesting article and knowing Prof. Ellis personally and his huge objectivity I am not surprised at his polite remark about String Theory. There is no doubt physics is in trouble with both String Theory and M Theory. I happen to be sure about what I say for I will in a year or so publish my second book describing the foundation on which rests the TOE. It will suggest scientifically how the universe originated. My first book mostly philosophical is in a good first draft and will be published in 2016. First if you have a theory describing how the universe could have originated by an extraordinary supernatural Mind, there is no way you can experimentally verify it. You cannot also verify whether God or the Supernatural Mind exists but looking at ourselves we have pretty good evidence they do exist. This is because we are just as difficult to explain as it is to explain God. Next String Theory, M Theory, multiverses, zillions of universes aring from nothing or from an ounce of energy, universes can be created from practically nothing in your lab or backyard, or existing inches from your nose, are far away from science. However a theory on the origin of OUR universe is not that farfetched and is testable. It has to predict how we got our universe in the beginning in an instant and how consciousness was part of the package. No theory of the origin of the universe is good enough unless it says what is consciousness and how it arose. Regarding Einstein's relativity theories they harbour the basic ideas of what the universe basically is and Einstein was right in saying QT is incomplete, except that I believe it is very incomplete. Both Eintein and QT cannot remain misunderstood for so long. The time has come to finalise them and show that Gravitation is very important but not in the manner it is so far believed in M- Theory and quantum gravity.
  32. Avatar for Raj Kamal
    Raj Kamal
    Einstein's General Relativity appears to be outdated by a duration of a century in the present context : It is incomplete. Space-Time geometry may at best be only a "map" and not the physical explanation of the physicality of Space and Time. There is no conclusive answer to the question: What is space and what is time? Which came first into existence-Space or Time? Does the law of causality apply to these entities? If the 'energy' is the original cause, which entity was the cause of energy? The findings of Higgs by LHC have intensified the curiosity about the answers to these questions. These answers may eventually lead to some unraveling the mystery of physicality of space and time.
  33. Avatar for Raj Kamal
    Raj Kamal
    Higgs' concept was based on the assumption of a medium physical in nature which pervaded the entire space. It is the physicality of that medium that added 'mass' to many of the fermions. LHC unique experiment of identifying that medium from which a pair of electrons was produced via some unidentified charged field.This experiment led to the accepted conclusion that LHC had discovered and quantified particle called Higgs. Einstein's Special Relativity theory was based on the speed of light, a tool for measuring the mass/speed of every other particle in the universe. So, the logical conclusions are: 1. The Earth is rushing through the field of Higgs. 2. In view of the fact that Higgs' field is the medium through which light itself is rushing, the 'light' cannot be considered as the metric unit for the mass/speed of all other particles. There has to be further theoretical/experimental research in this direction. 3. There are particles in the universe yet to be discovered whose speed is faster than that of light. May be, neutrino.
  34. Avatar for Alone: bad. Friend: good!
    Alone: bad. Friend: good!
    NO! You have mixed-up "higgs" & "ether". And you took what I wrote and copied it then twisted and distorted it JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION If you were going to test if there is a medium for the conveyance of light, would you... A) Test if the Earth is rushing through the medium. 2) Test if the Earth is NOT rushing through the medium. C3) Both of the above (same as: just test for medium, no constraints) http://www.nature.com/news/feuding-physicists-turn-to-philosophy-for-help-1.19076#comment-2423955440 The Sun (and solar system field) are also moving at high orbital speed around the galactic centre. If you had to pick a fixed position for a supposed stationary field (or medium), that would be a better choice... but not the best because the Milky Way Galaxy is also moving through the Universe. Claiming a fixed field would be relative solely to the Earth's orbit is not only wrong in more ways than one... it is complete baboonery.
  35. Avatar for Pentcho Valev
    Pentcho Valev
    The most fundamental problem in physics: Physicists reject the consequence, Einstein's absurd spacetime, but keep worshiping the underlying assumption, Einstein's 1905 false constant-speed-of-light postulate: https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22730370-600-why-do-we-move-forwards-in-time/ "[George] Ellis is up against one of the most successful theories in physics: special relativity. It revealed that there's no such thing as objective simultaneity. Although you might have seen three things happen in a particular order – 
A, then B, then C – someone moving 
at a different velocity could have seen 
it a different way – C, then B, then A. 
In other words, without simultaneity there is no way of specifying what things happened "now". And if not "now", what is moving through time? Rescuing an objective "now" is a daunting task. But Lee Smolin of the Perimeter Institute for TPs in Waterloo, Canada, has given it a go by tweaking relativity. He argues that we can rewrite physics in a way that includes "now" if we sacrifice some of our objective notions of space." http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2013/jun/10/time-reborn-farewell-reality-review "And by making the clock's tick relative - what happens simultaneously for one observer might seem sequential to another - Einstein's theory of special relativity not only destroyed any notion of absolute time but made time equivalent to a dimension in space: the future is already out there waiting for us; we just can't see it until we get there. This view is a logical and metaphysical dead end, says Smolin." http://www.bookdepository.com/Time-Reborn-Professor-Physics-Lee-Smolin/9780547511726 "Was Einstein wrong? At least in his understanding of time, Smolin argues, the great theorist of relativity was dead wrong. What is worse, by firmly enshrining his error in scientific orthodoxy, Einstein trapped his successors in insoluble dilemmas..." https://edge.org/response-detail/25477 What scientific idea is ready for retirement? Steve Giddings: "Spacetime. Physics has always been regarded as playing out on an underlying stage of space and time. Special relativity joined these into spacetime... (...) The apparent need to retire classical spacetime as a fundamental concept is profound..." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U47kyV4TMnE Nima Arkani-Hamed (06:11): "Almost all of us believe that space-time doesn't really exist, space-time is doomed and has to be replaced by some more primitive building blocks." Pentcho Valev
  36. Avatar for Pentcho Valev
    Pentcho Valev
    http://theconversation.com/how-einsteins-general-theory-of-relativity-killed-off-common-sense-physics-50042 "At the center of Einstein's theories is the fact that the speed of light is independent of the motion of the observer..." If the speed of light were independent of the motion of the observer, then there would be no reasonable explanation for the fact that the frequency measured by the observer shifts from f=c/λ to f'=(c+v)/λ when the observer starts moving with speed v towards the light source. The only reasonable explanation is this: The frequency measured by the observer shifts from f=c/λ to f'=(c+v)/λ because the speed of the light relative to the observer shifts from c to c'=c+v, in violation of Einstein's relativity. Pentcho Valev
  37. Avatar for Alone: bad. Friend: good!
    Alone: bad. Friend: good!
    Sound travels through air at the same speed even if the sounds being emitted are of different frequencies. i.e Doppler shift also has no effect on speed of sound waves. That's because sound travels in a medium. Waves travel in a medium. Light travels in a medium. Michelson-Morley were nuts. If you were going to test if there is a medium for the conveyance of light, would you... A) Test if the Earth is rushing through the medium. 2) Test if the Earth is NOT rushing through the medium. C3) Both of the above (same as: just test for medium, no constraints)
  38. Avatar for Reid Barnes
    Reid Barnes
    Actually it turns out the problem is in the elementary geometry underlying the general theory of relativity. Einstein said that “in the presence of a gravitational field, the geometry is not Euclidean.” At that time Euclidean geometry and non-Euclidean were seen as both logically consistent (just not logically consistent with each other). After Hilbert added the coordinate line to geometry, virtually everyone in the twentieth century took Hilbert’s system as a correct foundation, including Einstein.Yet there was a flaw that resulted from adding a coordinate system. The non-Euclidean geometry then became self-contradicting! When Hilbert added the features to comprise the real number line and coordinates, the very earliest axioms required subtle modifications. From Euclid's to draw a line from one point to any other, and extend it in a straight line, Hilbert first produced, two points determine a line and determine it completely. But this eventually became every pair of points is in some line (Axiom I. 1) and two different lines cannot contain the same pair of points (Axiom I. 2) (paraphrased). This 'line' is what became a coordinate line. Yet Axiom I. 2 is incompatible with one of the two types of non-Euclidean geometry (geometry with no parallels), and this is not the only problem. Then there was a problem with the remaining type. Apparently virtually no one had thoroughly and correctly reexamined the implications indicated by the subtle modifications of those elementary axioms. Math with coordinates or angles, was based on Hilbert's Theorem 8 [5 in earlier editions of his book] about a line dividing a plane in two, and on the SAS triangle congruency theorem (12). Hilbert said that based on Theorem 8, Theorem 10, which expanded the structure to three dimensions, expressed "the most important facts about the ordering of the elements of space." Hilbert proved Theorem 8 based on his Axiom I. 2, one of the modified axioms, and on Pasch's triangle axiom, which Hilbert believed was an independent foundational axiom, common to Euclidean and non-Euclidean geometry, including that remaining type of non-Euclidean geometry. Theorem 12 (SAS) presupposed Theorem 8. However, contrary to what Hilbert believed, the triangle axiom was not an independent foundational axiom. It was a proposition that combined a more elementary triangle axiom and Hilbert's Axiom of Parallels which Hilbert called "Euclid's Axiom." This Axiom of Parallels, "Euclid's Axiom," was a logical equivalent of the original Playfair's axiom, which was the logical substitute for Euclid's famous fifth postulate added by Playfair to Euclid's geometry in 1795. Why the non-Euclidean geometry is self-contradicting is explained in short order in a brief Facebook Note, that explains how general relativity lost its coordinate system. Part II of the Note explains how this was overlooked throughout the twentieth century: https://www.facebook.com/notes/reid-barnes/when-is-an-assertion-about-coordinates-merely-an-assertionan-unsupported-asserti/789731027746140.
  39. Avatar for Alone: bad. Friend: good!
    Show parent comment
    Alone: bad. Friend: good!
    That's all fine and dandy but you believe in the Michelson-Morley experiment and that completely destroys your credibility.
  40. Avatar for Charles Kiss
    Charles Kiss
    I can't remember if it was Schrödinger or Heisenberg, who had said something to the effect, regarding the wave function, that it [a theory] didn't have to be understandable to be useful, it only had to produce the correct results.

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